transcript
On the Road With Ukraine’s Refugees
We report alongside Ukrainians making their escape from Russia’s increasingly brutal invasion.
- michael barbaro
From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily.
- [music]
In response to Russia’s increasingly brutal campaign against Ukrainian towns and cities, an estimated 1.5 million people, most of them women and children, have fled Ukraine over the past 10 days, the fastest displacement of people in Europe since World War II.
Today, Sabrina Tavernise traveled alongside them as they made their escape.
It’s Monday, March 7.
- sabrina tavernise
We’re leaving the hotel room. What time is it, Valerie?
- valerie hopkins
I think it’s about 4:10.
- sabrina tavernise
It’s 4:10 p.m. on Tuesday, and we’re leaving the hotel room in Kyiv, walking through a very dark hallway to an elevator that will bring us down to the car, where we will drive south and west.
- sabrina tavernise
Last Tuesday, The New York Times made the decision to pull a group of reporters out of Kyiv and bring them to a city in Western Ukraine that was safer, called Lviv. I was one of those reporters, and so was my colleague, Valerie Hopkins.
- valerie hopkins
I didn’t realize we were going all the way.
- sabrina tavernise
The drive was supposed to take seven hours. Instead, it took us two days and two nights. And just as we closed the trunk in the parking lot of the hotel, we heard this huge bang and then another.
- sabrina tavernise
We just heard some artillery. Unclear if it’s incoming or outgoing.
- sabrina tavernise
We got into the car and drove out and —
- sabrina tavernise
There’s some ambulances driving by.
- sabrina tavernise
— later we would discover that those two booms were Russian military trying to blow up the television tower in downtown Kyiv.
- sabrina tavernise
The traffic lights have stopped working. They’re all just blinking.
(WHISPERING) It’s really, really sad.
- valerie hopkins
Oh, god, the roads are empty.
- sabrina tavernise
They’re so empty.
- [cell phone chimes]
- sabrina tavernise
We’re just driving through an intersection where there are some very serious-looking barricades, a bunch of sand bags and probably a couple of dozen men in black uniforms walking across the street, holding rifles.
- sabrina tavernise
After driving down those back roads out of Kyiv, under that really dark, low sky, we stayed in the town of Bila Tserkva. And we were woken up by another enormous boom. We kept driving that next day.
- [music]
And we thought we’d pretty easily be in Lviv by dinnertime. But we just kept getting stuck. I mean, it was checkpoint after checkpoint and this unbelievable crush of cars.
- sabrina tavernise
It’s 4:50 p.m. on Wednesday.
And we’re in a line of cars as far as the eye can see on the highway going west toward Lviv from Vinnytsia.
Everybody has cars packed with kids, animals, suitcases.
[CAR PASSING]
A woman holding a little boy just waved at me.
Lots of cars with handmade signs in the window, taped to the windows, saying children, “ditey.”
It’s just stretched on for miles and miles and miles, just going slowly, maybe 5 kilometers an hour. And we’re kind of neck and neck. So I’m going to stick my head out the window here and see if someone will talk to me.
Do you speak English? Po russki?
Po russki?
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- valeri
Kropyvnytskyi.
- sabrina tavernise
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- valeri
Kropyvnytskyi.
- sabrina tavernise
Kropyvnytskyi — [SPEAKING RUSSIAN] He’s coming from Kropyvnytskyi.
- valeri
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) We’ve been driving for six hours now. [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- valeri
Valeri (sp).
- sabrina tavernise
Valeri. [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- valeri
Yeah, yeah.
- sabrina tavernise
His name is Valeri. And he has little kids in the back. [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- valeri
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) I’m really feeling quite down because my family is going out, and I’m going to need to stay.
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- valeri
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) I was in Odessa before. There are already explosions starting in Odessa.
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
I’m saying, what are your feelings in your heart right now? And they said, very heavy, very pressed down. And his wife is starting to cry. [SPEAKING RUSSIAN TO ANOTHER CAR]
- dimitry
Chernihiv.
- sabrina tavernise
They’re coming from Chernihiv. [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- dimitry
Dimitry (sp).
- sabrina tavernise
His name is Dimitry. [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- dimitry
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
Oh, they left the day before yesterday. [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- dmitry
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) We were really tired of sitting in the basement, in a coffin. The planes were flying overhead.
- dmitry
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) There above my house was a war going full force.
[ENGINES RUMBLING]
- speaker
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) Children are crying. The old people are stuck in the houses. There are planes flying over. They can’t get out.
- speaker
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) Just tell them to help. Tell them to — to stop this. Tell them to stop what’s happening.
- speaker
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) if you can tell somebody, just communicate this. You have to stop this somehow.
- speaker
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) My friend remains there.
- speaker
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) We just left. They told us it was mined.
- speaker
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
Please tell them to stop it.
- [music]
- sabrina tavernise
There were lots of moms consoling children —
- sabrina tavernise
How are you feeling? [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
— sitting on their laps, sitting in the back, playing with toys.
- sabrina tavernise
It’s really heavy. It’s really heavy. Children in the back.
- sabrina tavernise
One little baby had a stuffed mobile hung above her head made of cloth mushrooms.
- sabrina tavernise
Hello. Hi. I’m a reporter from The New York Times. Will you talk to me?
- speaker
Yeah, I have a second. Of course.
- sabrina tavernise
OK.
- sabrina tavernise
Everybody talked about what it was that pushed them to actually go.
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) There were so many explosions last night. The children were very afraid. We live near the airport.
- sabrina tavernise
And for the most part, it was explosions, bombs.
- speaker
So we’re trying to get somewhere that is safe.
- sabrina tavernise
Children feeling terrified, having to go down into basements all the time. And parents just decided they’d had enough.
- sabrina tavernise
Where are you coming from?
- speaker
From Kyiv. I am from Kyiv. We are all from Kyiv. Thank you too. You’re welcome.
- sabrina tavernise
Good luck.
- speaker
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
[ENGINES RUMBLING]
Oh my goodness.
- sabrina tavernise
Whoa, we finally reached the checkpoint. [EXHALES]
- interposing voices
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
By the end of the day on Wednesday became pretty clear that we were never going to make it to Lviv that night. It was already getting dark. And we needed to stop for the night. And we were calling everywhere, any hotel. And everything was full. Nothing had rooms.
And at some point, my colleague Valerie reached someone in a town called Viitivtsi who said there was actually space at a kindergarten in their town. And it didn’t seem like a great option, but it was dark and it was snowing. And at that point, we didn’t have a better idea. So we drove to the town.
And we got out. And a man greeted us and introduced himself as the mayor of the town. And he said we just needed to bring our passports up to the second-floor register, and then we could have the room in the kindergarten.
- sabrina tavernise
Hi, I’m Sabrina. Hi.
- speaker
Nice to meet you.
- sabrina tavernise
Nice to meet you too. Thank you for being here.
- sabrina tavernise
They took us into the kindergarten. And it was this —
- sabrina tavernise
Oh, we’re in a kindergarten. And there’s a little — aww, there’s little cubbies.
- sabrina tavernise
Really brightly painted series of rooms.
- sabrina tavernise
Little cubbies, little child-sized seats. There’s a painting of a giraffe and a palm tree on the wall and a lot of spider plants. Little silk flowers.
- sabrina tavernise
And lots of little child-sized mattresses.
- sabrina tavernise
Uh-huh. Come here, come here.
- speaker
Yeah.
- sabrina tavernise
Oksana is showing us the kitchen. Oh wow. Oh, tea, uh huh. The tea — the teapot.
- speaker
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
Instant coffee, and then there’s tea bags.
- sabrina tavernise
So we started to settle in for the night. And a very kind woman who ran the kindergarten made food for us. She made us tea. She made us spicy rice with chicken. And she had a huge jar of pickles that she had made herself that she brought out. And we each took a pickle. We had dinner at a tiny little child-sized table, sitting on tiny little child-sized chairs.
- sabrina tavernise
They’re asking if this is the other family. Can I say hello?
- sabrina tavernise
And pretty soon, another family showed up.
- sabrina tavernise
OK, so Luda.
- family member
Anya.
- sabrina tavernise
Anya.
- family member
Anna, Ira.
- sabrina tavernise
Ira.
- max
Max.
- sabrina tavernise
Max.
- max
Max.
- sabrina tavernise
OK. So Luda is grandmother, and then three grandchildren.
- family member
Yes.
- sabrina tavernise
Yeah, nice. How old?
- family member
[SPEAKING UKRAINIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
You’re 12. How old are you?
- valerie hopkins
Doesn’t she look so much older.
- ira
19.
- sabrina tavernise
19?
- ira
Yeah.
- sabrina tavernise
Aww. How old are you, Max.
- max
15.
- speaker
You’re 15.
- sabrina tavernise
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- ira
[SPEAKING UKRAINIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
Oh. (TRANSLATING) We were driving for 12 hours. Yeah. Did you come from Kyiv?
- interposing voices
No, no.
- max
Cherkasy.
- sabrina tavernise
Oh, Cherkasy.
- family member
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
- sabrina tavernise
Uh-huh. They came from Cherkasy, a little bit below — [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- max
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
[RUSSIAN] I’m saying, what happened in Cherkasy? They’re saying, explosions. [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- ira
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) My family was living in Poland.
- ira
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) And my mom was calling every day. She’s really worried.
- ira
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) She’s crying.
- ira
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) The truth is, I would actually like to stay.
- ira
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) I think I would be helpful in some way.
- ira
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) But my mom — I mean, I want to be with her. Really I want to be with her. Ira, [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
What are you feeling, right now, in your heart?
- ira
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) I was going in the car, and I was feeling like I was going to cry because I felt like I was leaving my country. And it was actually war, and I was leaving my country.
- ira
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) It’s a really horrible feeling, actually.
- ira
[CRIES]
- sabrina tavernise
Oh.
- ira
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
Yeah.
- ira
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) You hear this every day. It’s horrible.
- ira
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
Yeah.
- ira
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) My dad is still in the town, and so is my boyfriend. And my boyfriend actually went to man the checkpoints. And that can be a dangerous thing in town, to man the checkpoints. [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- ira
Yeah.
- sabrina tavernise
He stayed there, and he won’t leave.
- ira
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) On one hand, I’m really proud.
- ira
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) On the other hand, I was trying to convince him not to do it. But then I thought, no, OK, go.
[SOMBER MUSIC]
- ira
[CRIES]
- sabrina tavernise
Oh, beautiful.
- luda
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- luda
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
Luda is offering us — offering us little pancakes with meat. And they’re so good. [LAUGHS]
- sabrina tavernise
While we were there, standing in the kindergarten, talking, a woman walked in. Her name was Larysa. She owned a hotel right down the street. And she told us it was overflowing.
- sabrina tavernise
(HUSHED) So we’re going upstairs. Lots of people are sleeping. So we’re going to try to not make a lot of sound.
- sabrina tavernise
She took us to her hotel. And when we went inside, we saw people lying everywhere.
- sabrina tavernise
There’s a man. He’s sleeping in the corridor. There are two —
- sabrina tavernise
In the hallways, under tables.
- sabrina tavernise
This is another little place for sleeping, underneath a piano. There’s a place for —
- sabrina tavernise
Next to a piano.
- sabrina tavernise
So Armin is showing me where they’re going to be sleeping. He’s carrying a little child.
- sabrina tavernise
In a back room that was very small.
- armin
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) Sometimes it feels like it just is an old movie that you’re watching in front of your eyes, something from Tsarist times.
What is he saying? Come in, come in, welcome. You’re going to sleep under the table. There’s two women and a young child who just came through the door.
- sabrina tavernise
And suddenly we heard these air raid sirens.
- [interposing voices]
- sabrina tavernise
Hey, Valerie, where are you going?
- sabrina tavernise
And everyone in the hotel moved toward a trap door in the floor, and climbed down to the basement.
- speaker
[SPEAKING UKRAINIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
Oh, it’s scary, the little girl says.
- [child crying]
- speaker
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) They’ve suffered such days, my children. [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- speaker
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) We heard huge blasts. They were shooting.
- speaker
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) We hear how people are suffering.
- speaker
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) When we left — I was trying not to cry in Kyiv, but when we left Kyiv, I started just crying and the tears wouldn’t stop.
- speaker
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) We really want the Ukrainian army to win, to succeed. We see how it’s so unjust what’s happening. So unjust. We want the Ukrainian army to win.
- [murmur of women and children talking]
- sabrina tavernise
So we’re going back out of the shelter now, back out of the basement. I guess the danger is over. What time is it, you guys?
- speaker
Let me check.
- sabrina tavernise
It’s 10:26.
- sabrina tavernise
When we got the all-clear after about half an hour, the families climbed back up the stairs, into their hallways and back rooms and next to the piano. And we went back to the kindergarten for the night.
- sabrina tavernise
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- speaker
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
Bye. Good night.
- speaker
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- [music]
- michael barbaro
We’ll be right back.
- [rustling]
- [footsteps]
- [brushing teeth]
- sabrina tavernise
In the morning, we all got up together. There was just one bathroom, and at that point, probably 50 people in the kindergarten. So we all took turns.
- sabrina tavernise
(WHISPERING) Oh. Someone’s here to say hi. What’s your name?
- caroline
My name is Caroline.
- sabrina tavernise
(WHISPERING) Caroline. What a nice name. I’m Sabrina.
- caroline
[INAUDIBLE]
- sabrina tavernise
Yeah. And where are you going? Where are you going today?
- caroline
To Poland.
- sabrina tavernise
You’re going to Poland. So I’m a journalist. I’m a journalist from The New York Times. And I’ve been talking to people about where they’re going and why they left.
Why did you leave? What was happening?
- caroline
A lot of bombs.
- sabrina tavernise
There’s a lot of bombs, Caroline said.
- caroline
Yes.
- sabrina tavernise
And is there something that you left behind that you wanted to bring?
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
What is it?
- caroline
My grandma, my dad.
- sabrina tavernise
Your dad and your grandma are still there?
- caroline
And my — we have hamster.
- sabrina tavernise
Hamster?
- caroline
It’s in the village with grandma.
- sabrina tavernise
With grandma. What’s the hamster’s name?
- caroline
Busya.
- sabrina tavernise
Busya. What does Busya mean in Russian?
- caroline
Busya [RUSSIAN].
- sabrina tavernise
It’s like a pearl?
- caroline
Yeah, pearl.
- sabrina tavernise
Wow, little Pearl, Pearl the hamster.
- caroline
He is white.
- sabrina tavernise
He’s white. Oh, good name. Good name.
- [interposing voices]
- sabrina tavernise
There’s a little girl trying to get into the bathroom. [SPEAKING RUSSIAN] What’s her name?
- caroline
I don’t know. I don’t ask her.
- sabrina tavernise
OK. I’m asking Caroline all the children’s names, but she doesn’t know them.
Bye, Ira.
- ira
Bye.
- sabrina tavernise
Bye. We’re leaving the school now. OK. [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
It’s a very snowy road.
Whoa. It’s 12:30 on Thursday. And we’re in a checkpoint line in Western Ukraine that’s stretched at least two hours, if not more. We’ve seen mothers taking little kids off onto the field on the right side of the road here to pee and go to the bathroom. One woman was pulling up her little boy’s green underpants just a bit ago. And we saw a woman helping an elderly woman, babushka, down this sort of grassy area to get to the bottom so she could go to the bathroom. And she fell. And then she tried to help her. And she was helping her up.
It’s just an incredibly long line that’s all of these people from all of these parts of Ukraine, from all over, are waiting in to get out. This is what happens when an entire country tries to evacuate in a week.
- [music]
- sabrina tavernise
We’re at the very beginning of the checkpoint line that we’ve been in for two hours. And we’re just pulling up. 12:37
- speaker
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
- sabrina tavernise
Hello. [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
- speaker
Passports.
- sabrina tavernise
Passports.
Looks like a territorial defense guy checking our passports. He says, OK, go, go, drive.
- [interposing voices]
- valerie hopkins
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
- speaker
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
- sabrina tavernise
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
- sabrina tavernise
We finally got to Lviv in the afternoon on Thursday. The city was packed and overflowing. The train station was swarming with people. Lviv is a place where people say goodbye.
Men go back to their towns because the men couldn’t leave Ukraine. Women and children go on to Poland.
[RUMBLING]
- sabrina tavernise
We’re driving up to the train station. And it is quite crowded streets. The sidewalks on either side of the street are just packed, lots of children. And now we’re going to get out and go with Alina, the volunteer who’s going to take us to the train station.
- sabrina tavernise
When I got to Lviv, I went to the train station with a volunteer named Alina Avremenka (sp). She’s working to help refugee women and children. And she works with them mostly in the train station.
- sabrina tavernise
This is a packed sidewalk. People are leaving the train station. Just a river of people leaving the train station. Oh my god, this is an unbelievably packed train station. You can’t move. It’s like a concert.
- alina
It’s a queue for the Poland.
- sabrina tavernise
Oh my god.
- alina
Yeah.
- sabrina tavernise
This is a queue for Poland.
- alina
It’s really big. But now we are going for the waiting hall for mothers and their children —
- sabrina tavernise
OK.
- alina
— where our volunteers is situated and from where we are coordinated.
- sabrina tavernise
Great.
- alina
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) I’m trying to get through and we can’t get — [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Very huge bags right at my knees. Ooh, OK.
- alina
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
- sabrina tavernise
Backpack in my face.
- alina
We are going toward the hall, the waiting hall.
- sabrina tavernise
Oh. Oh my god. Oh, there’s a little boy holding a parakeet, a green parakeet, in a clear plastic container that looks like it used to have cherry tomatoes in it. It’s a little parakeet. Oh my goodness.
- alina
[SPEAKING UKRAINIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
People are grabbing their bags, moving really suddenly and kind of with some urgency and desperation.
- sabrina tavernise
And while we were walking through the main terminal —
- alina
[SPEAKING UKRAINIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
Now talking to the crowd.
- sabrina tavernise
— there was this surge forward in the crowd. Everyone was moving toward this tunnel, a kind of underground passage that was packed so tightly. This long line of people trying to get on the train to Poland. Alina is trying to explain.
- alina
[SPEAKING UKRAINIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) I’m speaking. Be quiet.
- alina
[SPEAKING UKRAINIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) These are volunteers here. There are not many of us.
We need order here. No panic. Don’t break the rules. Don’t let things get out of hand. Stop it. Be quiet.
- [interposing voices]
- sabrina tavernise
A woman says, we’ve been standing since 11:30.
- [shouting]
- sabrina tavernise
Alina is saying stop.
- alina
[SPEAKING UKRAINIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
Alina is saying, three lines, three lines.
- speaker
[SPEAKING UKRAINIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) Make way for us, make way for us, make way for us.
- alina
[SPEAKING UKRAINIAN]
- [interposing voices]
- sabrina tavernise
Oh my god.
- [interposing voices]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) Let us through. Please let us through.
- speaker
[SPEAKING UKRAINIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) Let us through.
Oh, My god. Look. [SIGHS]
- [child crying]
- alina
So now I —
- sabrina tavernise
Holy shit.
- alina
Yeah. Yeah, it’s —
- sabrina tavernise
Oh my god.
- alina
It’s even less than it was. [LAUGHS]
- sabrina tavernise
Now we’ve gotten up to the platform. We’re going up to the women’s and children’s room?
- alina
Yeah. And our medicine room and our hospital staff, [SPEAKING RUSSIAN].
- sabrina tavernise
Our headquarters.
- alina
Yeah.
- sabrina tavernise
Headquarters.
- alina
Yeah, yeah.
- sabrina tavernise
So we’re going up a stairway.
And we’re going up to the headquarters of the volunteers. It’s also the place where the women and children can rest.
- alina
[SPEAKING UKRAINIAN]
- speaker
[SPEAKING UKRAINIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
A lot of women — people sitting on pieces of cardboard. Oh, rugs.
- speaker
[SPEAKING UKRAINIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
Oh wow.
This is a hall of, I would say, probably 400, 500 people in it.
[CHILD CRYING]
Lots of little babies. There’s a woman in a black puffer jacket just changing her son’s underwear.
[CHILD CRYING]
A little boy in a blue jacket, crying, just sobbing on a chair.
The little boy is really sad.
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Do you speak English?
- ilona
Yes, I do.
- sabrina tavernise
Oh, excellent. My name is Sabrina. I’m a reporter for The New York Times. Can I talk to you a little bit?
- ilona
Yes, you may talk.
- sabrina tavernise
Tell me your name.
- ilona
But I speak English so-so.
- sabrina tavernise
It sounds very good. It sounds very good. So what is your name?
- ilona
My name is Ilona.
- sabrina tavernise
Ilona. Nice to meet you.
- ilona
It its nice to meet you too.
- sabrina tavernise
Ilona, where did you come from?
- ilona
I’m from Zaporizhzhia.
- sabrina tavernise
Zaporizhzhia — a lot of people from the train station today from Zaporizhzhia.
- ilona
Yes, yes, there are a lot of us. Yes.
- sabrina tavernise
Ilona, how are you feeling right now?
- ilona
[SIGHS] It’s very — we are scared. We are scared. And we don’t know where we come, what will be in our future. We don’t know. But we all — everything will be better, we think. [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) We’re hoping for the best.
- ilona
Yes, we are hoping for the best. Yes. [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) I was leaving yesterday with my daughter. And I just was sobbing in the train. I left my whole family there, my husband, everybody. Everybody’s still there. I didn’t take anything with me, just my daughter.
- ilona
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) We both cried yesterday on the train. And this morning, she asked me the question, as if she was a grown-up girl, she said, was it the right decision to leave? And I said, I don’t know.
Ilona. [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
Do you feel yourself a refugee?
- speaker
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) It’s a bad question, but yes, right now, I’m saving my daughter.
And I left my husband.
I didn’t want to leave my husband. I’m not leaving the country. I’m only going to Western Ukraine. I’m not leaving the country. And I know I’m going to be returning.
I don’t want that status. No, I love my homeland.
- ilona
Yes, yes. [SIGHS] [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) I’m trying to make the right decision. But I don’t know. Am I making the right decision? My husband tells me I need to take her. We’re responsible for her life. [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- ilona
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) I don’t know if it’s right, not right. I just had my family gather all of our stuff and said, go, you must go.
- ilona
Yes.
- [music]
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) I’m just sending thoughts out to the cosmos that it’s going to be OK. It’s going to be OK.
- ilona
Yes. Yes.
- sabrina tavernise
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- [music]
- [murmur of voices echoing in train station]
- sabrina tavernise
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- tim
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
Tim. Your name is Tim.
- sabrina tavernise
The last person I met in the station was a little boy named Tim. He was waiting by himself on a pile of suitcases.
- sabrina tavernise
Tim, how old are you? [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- tim
Seven.
- sabrina tavernise
Seven.
- tim
Seven.
- sabrina tavernise
Cool. [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- tim
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) She’s upstairs. She went to get us tea.
- tim
Upstairs and downstairs.
- sabrina tavernise
Downstairs, exactly. Good, Tim. You know upstairs and downstairs. What else do you know in English, Tim?
- tim
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) I speak Russian. I speak Ukrainian. And I speak English. [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- tim
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) Right now, I don’t know where I am.
- tim
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) But I came from Slovyansk. That’s where I came from.
- tim
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) My coat that my grandmother gave me for the journey, it’s like my grandmother’s, very warm.
- tim
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
Yes.
- tim
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) Let me tell you a secret.
- tim
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
[RUSSIAN]
- tim
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
(TRANSLATING) I want to tell you a secret that, when I was in the car, I pulled out one of my teeth — actually two, this one and this one — with my glove.
- tim
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
Tim was curious about my English. And he said —
- tim
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
— how do you translate Kyiv?
- sabrina tavernise
Kyiv.
- tim
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
I asked him what he meant. He said, I mean the city, Kyiv.
- tim
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
[RUSSIAN]
- tim
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
That’s where my dad was when there was still no war.
- [music]
- sabrina tavernise
So Tim has this excellent LEGO thing. It looks kind of like a big robot.
Tim, you’re taking this apart, this thing.
- tim
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- tim
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
Tim’s saying, I’m redoing it.
I’m redoing it.
- tim
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
- sabrina tavernise
It looks a little bit like a cat. It’s very fluffy.
- [music]
- michael barbaro
On Sunday, for the first time, American officials said that Russian attacks against Ukrainian civilians could constitute war crimes and that the United States was collecting evidence that could eventually be used for such a charge. A few hours later, journalists for The Times witnessed the Russian shelling of a street used by civilians to flee fighting north of Kyiv. One of the Russian missiles killed a woman, her two children and a family friend. Photographs showed the dead children still wearing their backpacks.
As of Sunday night, according to the U.N., at least 364 Ukrainian civilians have been killed and 759 have been injured since the start of the war.
We’ll be right back.
Here’s what else you need to know today.
Over the weekend, Russian police arrested more than 4,000 anti-war protesters who had taken to the streets despite a set of draconian new laws put in place by Vladimir Putin that make it a crime to oppose the war in Ukraine. One of those laws could even make it a crime for Russians to call it a war since Putin has instead described it as a special military operation.
- archived recording
[PROTESTERS CHANTING]
- michael barbaro
Nevertheless, protesters across Russia were defiant, chanting “no to war.”
Today’s episode was produced by Lynsea Garrison, Sydney Harper, and Kaitlin Roberts. It was edited by Michael Benoist, contains original music by Marion Lozano, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly. That’s it for The Daily. I’m Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.
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On the Road With Ukraine’s Refugees
We report alongside Ukrainians making their escape from Russia’s increasingly brutal invasion.
Listen and follow The Daily
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This episode contains strong language.
In response to Russia’s increasingly brutal campaign against Ukrainian towns and cities, an estimated 1.5 million people — most of them women and children — have fled Ukraine over the past 10 days. It’s the fastest displacement of people in Europe since World War II.
While evacuating the capital city of Kyiv for Lviv in the west, a seven-hour journey that took two days and nights, the Daily host Sabrina Tavernise traveled alongside some of those fleeing the conflict.
Background reading
With most Ukrainian men legally prohibited from leaving, the international border gates serve as a painful filter, splitting families as women and children move on.
Spared direct attacks so far, Lviv, a city in Ukraine’s west, has become a transit point for thousands of refugees and for men and supplies headed to the front lines.
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Transcripts of each episode are available by the next workday. You can find them at the top of the page.
Sabrina Tavernise contributed reporting.
The Daily is made by Lisa Tobin, Rachel Quester, Lynsea Garrison, Clare Toeniskoetter, Paige Cowett, Michael Simon Johnson, Brad Fisher, Larissa Anderson, Chris Wood, Jessica Cheung, Stella Tan, Alexandra Leigh Young, Lisa Chow, Eric Krupke, Marc Georges, Luke Vander Ploeg, M.J. Davis Lin, Austin Mitchell, Dan Powell, Dave Shaw, Sydney Harper, Daniel Guillemette, Robert Jimison, Mike Benoist, Liz O. Baylen, Asthaa Chaturvedi, Kaitlin Roberts, Rachelle Bonja, Diana Nguyen, Marion Lozano, Corey Schreppel, Anita Badejo, Rob Szypko, Elisheba Ittoop, Chelsea Daniel, Mooj Zadie, Patricia Willens and Rowan Niemisto.
Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly. Special thanks to Sam Dolnick, Paula Szuchman, Cliff Levy, Lauren Jackson, Julia Simon, Mahima Chablani, Sofia Milan, Desiree Ibekwe, Erica Futterman, Wendy Dorr, Elizabeth Davis-Moorer, Jeffrey Miranda, Renan Borelli and Maddy Masiello.
Sabrina Tavernise is a national correspondent covering demographics and is the lead writer for The Times on the Census. She started at The Times in 2000, spending her first 10 years as a foreign correspondent. More about Sabrina Tavernise
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