Hi Caroljeen,
Every reference of kyrios in the New Testament does not apply to Jesus.
The Father is referred to as kyrios in James 3:9.
Pilate is referred to as such in Matthew 27:63, Paul and Silas in Acts 16:30.
There are other passages as well.
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The fear of the Lord (YHWH) = The fear of the Lord (Jesus)
- Thread starter Fred
- Start date
Hi Caroljeen,
Every reference of kyrios in the New Testament does not apply to Jesus.
The Father is referred to as kyrios in James 3:9.
Pilate is referred to as such in Matthew 27:63, Paul and Silas in Acts 16:30.
There are other passages as well.
I was specifically thinking of the Father when I asked that question. I should have been more specific. Thank youHi Caroljeen,
Every reference of kyrios in the New Testament does not apply to Jesus.
The Father is referred to as kyrios in James 3:9.
Pilate is referred to as such in Matthew 27:63, Paul and Silas in Acts 16:30.
There are other passages as well.
Okay. I see.I was specifically thinking of the Father when I asked that question. I should have been more specific. Thank you
I would also include Acts 4:29 and Revelation 11:15.
Yahchristian
Well-known member
I say ONE Being.
Just to clarify your Trinitarian view...
What does “Him” and “His” highlighted below refer to?
A) ONE Being / ZERO Persons
B) ONE Being / ONE Person
C) ONE Being / THREE Persons
D) Not sure
I say B.
Throughout the Old Testament to fear the Lord entails worshiping Him as YHWH.
Deuteronomy 6:13 (cf. Jeremiah 2:19, 20)
You shall fear only the LORD your God; and you shall worship Him and swear by His name. (NASB)
You only have to look in the NT to see that both the Father and the Son receive pelach from the apostles and the Father pelach from Jesus. To seek to confound the Father with the Son on the basis of such is manifest hubris. The Son doesn't receive pelach to the exclusion of the Father.You ignored how Psalm 110:1 is associated with both Mark 14:62 and Daniel 7:13 in post 12. You did this because you didn't want to deal with the fact that the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of 'pelach' which demonstrates He is God.
I never claimed the Son did. The fact that the Son receives pelach proves He is God.The Son doesn't receive pelach to the exclusion of the Father.
It proves that the Son sits at the right hand of God or of the power, in the accepted terminology of the NT. You are seeking to invent a terminology and therefore a theology all your own, where the Son legitimately excludes the Father. Such is heretical and smacks of ba'alism, which went in for the same nonsense.I never claimed the Son did. The fact that the Son receives pelach proves He is God.
StrawmanYou are seeking to invent a terminology and therefore a theology all your own, where the Son legitimately excludes the Father.
Hardly. The NT maintains a consistent distinction between the Son and the Father at all times, which is wholly opposed to your personal agenda to subvert that distinction.Strawman
Greetings again Fred,
Kind regards
Trevor
You are ignoring the fact that Jesus is exalted to be Lord, Ruler, Master over the whole earth and God requires that we bow the knee to Jesus and worship God the Father through Jesus Philippians 2:9-11, true worship "to the glory of God the Father", not to "the glory of God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit". Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. Jesus is the Son of God, a human, now exalted and made immortal. What is your perspective on Psalm 110:1, God the Father sitting in the centre position, God the Son seated on the right hand, God the Holy Spirit seated on the left hand, or hovering as a cloud over the Father and Son?You ignored how Psalm 110:1 is associated with both Mark 14:62 and Daniel 7:13 in post 12. You did this because you didn't want to deal with the fact that the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of 'pelach' which demonstrates He is God.
Kind regards
Trevor
Both are the proper recipients of worship which is due unto God alone.Hardly. The NT maintains a consistent distinction between the Son and the Father at all times, which is wholly opposed to your personal agenda to subvert that distinction.
Worship is being rendered to Jesus. This brings glory to God the Father.You are ignoring the fact that Jesus is exalted to be Lord, Ruler, Master over the whole earth and God requires that we bow the knee to Jesus and worship God the Father through Jesus
Refusal to render worship tto Jesus dishonors God the Father.
1. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): Belief in the Father is thus connected with the ultimate goal of the rule of God, as in the last sentence of the hymn to Christ in Phil. 2:10 f., cf. the Father of glory, Eph. 1:17. It is the worship of the Kyrios, however which finds utterance in this extolling of the Father. (5:1011, patēr, Schrenk)
2. Moisés Silva: Clearly, the worship of Jesus as Lord does not imply competition with the Father, who receives even greater glory through the glorification of the Son (Philippians, The Wycliffe Exegetical Commentary, page 133).
God is worshipped through Christ. Christ doesn't supplant God nor become a sole object of worship. That is why such formulas as are in 1 Pet 1:3 are used "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead..."Both are the proper recipients of worship which is due unto God alone.
johnny guitar
Well-known member
Not every reference, HOWEVER every reference to The Lord applies to God.Just curious, have you done a search in the NT to see if every reference of "Lord" applies to Jesus?
Good post, btw.
God is worshipped through Christ.
Worship is also to Christ because He is God. This is true in many passages.
johnny guitar
Well-known member
Christ does NOT supplant God; Christ IS God.God is worshipped through Christ. Christ doesn't supplant God nor become a sole object of worship. That is why such formulas as are in 1 Pet 1:3 are used "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead..."
johnny guitar
Well-known member
Persons NOT confounded. Father and Son are BOTH God.Thank you for quoting the proof text that Jesus (YHWH's salvation) isn't YHWH.
The LORD (YHWH) says to my Lord (adon): “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.” (ESV)
The Father is identified as YHWH (or theos), the son identified as adon (lord or kyrios), as the NT exemplifies. So why are you always seeking to confound persons?
BTW The Lord is God and vice versa.
johnny guitar
Well-known member
C)Just to clarify your Trinitarian view...
What does “Him” and “His” highlighted below refer to?
A) ONE Being / ZERO Persons
B) ONE Being / ONE Person
C) ONE Being / THREE Persons
D) Not sure
I say B.
Next question..................
Greetings again Fred,
I remember reading a forum post some years ago where the word "worship" was analysed and there are more than one Greek word translated as "worship". I could not find the forum post and I cannot recall all that was stated. I have not been successful in my own research on this as yet, but perhaps you could comment on the following:
Revelation 3:9 (KJV): 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Revelation 5:8–10 (KJV): 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Kind regards
Trevor
What seems to be clear from this is that the Trinity does not fit what is stated in Philippians 2:9-11 because if the Trinity was correct it would say to the glory of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. You may not agree here, but the whole passage of Philippians 2:1-11 is climaxed with the glory rendered to God the Father by means of reverence and obeisance to Jesus, whom God exalted.Worship is being rendered to Jesus. This brings glory to God the Father. Refusal to render worship to Jesus dishonors God the Father.
I suggest neither of your two "authorities" here are endorsing the Trinity, or in other words, using a correct explanation based on Philippians 2:9-11 if the Trinity is correct.1. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): Belief in the Father is thus connected with the ultimate goal of the rule of God, as in the last sentence of the hymn to Christ in Phil. 2:10 f., cf. the Father of glory, Eph. 1:17. It is the worship of the Kyrios, however which finds utterance in this extolling of the Father. (5:1011, patēr, Schrenk)
2. Moisés Silva: Clearly, the worship of Jesus as Lord does not imply competition with the Father, who receives even greater glory through the glorification of the Son (Philippians, The Wycliffe Exegetical Commentary, page 133).
I remember reading a forum post some years ago where the word "worship" was analysed and there are more than one Greek word translated as "worship". I could not find the forum post and I cannot recall all that was stated. I have not been successful in my own research on this as yet, but perhaps you could comment on the following:
Revelation 3:9 (KJV): 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Revelation 5:8–10 (KJV): 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Kind regards
Trevor
johnny guitar
Well-known member
BY WORSHIP of The ONE Lord. Jesus Christ.Greetings again Fred,
What seems to be clear from this is that the Trinity does not fit what is stated in Philippians 2:9-11 because if the Trinity was correct it would say to the glory of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. You may not agree here, but the whole passage of Philippians 2:1-11 is climaxed with the glory rendered to God the Father by means of reverence and obeisance to Jesus, whom God exalted.
I suggest neither of your two "authorities" here are endorsing the Trinity, or in other words, using a correct explanation based on Philippians 2:9-11 if the Trinity is correct.
I remember reading a forum post some years ago where the word "worship" was analysed and there are more than one Greek word translated as "worship". I could not find the forum post and I cannot recall all that was stated. I have not been successful in my own research on this as yet, but perhaps you could comment on the following:
Revelation 3:9 (KJV): 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Revelation 5:8–10 (KJV): 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Kind regards
Trevor